An activist to the core, down-to-earth and has incurred the Nigerian Senate's wrath in recent times, the Chairman of Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption, has attacked the legislators once again in new interview.
Prof. Itse Sagay
While speaking in an exclusive interview with The Nation newspaper, Prof Itse Sagay (SAN), the chairman of Presidential Advisory Committee Against Corruption (PACAC), opened up on corruption in the judiciary, legislature, restructuring, former Petroleum Resource Minister Mrs Diezani Alison-Madueke and sundry issues.
Here are excerpts;
The Senators accused you of making hate speeches and using abusive language against them. Have you apologised to them?
On the contrary, they should apologise to me, because if you saw their statement, if I had not become thick-skinned because of my two-year chairmanship of this committee, I’d have been very upset. I’m a bit thick-skinned now. I’ve been insulted left, right and centre. Even those that I’m hoping would benefit from our work young ones whose patrimony is being wasted away some of them are rented to insult us. So, there was nothing they (Senators) didn’t say about me that I was ranting, I was over-excited, I talk anyhow, there’s no name they didn’t call me. I said two things. One, that they’re not committed to Nigeria, that they’re there for themselves alone and simply consuming all the national assets and leaving poor Nigerians to waste away and the country under-developed. And I provided the figures.
I know that worse exists, which has not been detected. I didn’t say what the minority leader, majority leader, deputy Senate president and Senate president get as extras. They run into hundreds of millions. What I said at that lecture is a tip of the iceberg. We’re going to do further thorough research on this matter, and we’re still going to come out with figures. What we’re aiming for is for the National Assembly to admit that they’re frittering away our national assets and funds and therefore preventing them from being used for the other vital sectors, to create more employment, to fix our infrastructure. If you recall, the former Governor of Central Bank said they were consuming virtually one quarter, 25 per cent of our budget. They didn’t deny it.
Why are you against their allowances?
There’s one more thing I need to stress. If you look at the allowances, Nigerians need to ask themselves questions. Should we be the ones clothing Senators? Should my tax be used in hanging Agbada on a Senator? The press has not taken it up, but this is serious. How many times have government provided clothes for you, and yet you’re clothed? But these men who are overpaid, who are absorbing the largest share of our resources are still asking us to clothe them, as if they arrived in Abuja naked. It’s not acceptable. These same people are collecting huge sums, claiming that they’re suffering hardship by doing their job. If you go to the Senate chambers, you will see the luxurious furnishing, fully air-conditioned; you’ll see staff running around, attending to every little thing they need, serving them, hand and foot that is hardship.
What about the man who is earning N18,000 a month, who’s carrying machinery, working in a factory, cutting grass on the road, cleaning the roads, sweating with hard labour. Nobody is paying them hardship allowance. But the people are paid hardship allowance for living in tremendous luxury. They’re claiming utility allowance. In other words, if we don’t give them money, they don’t have cutlery, tablecloth, plates and saucepans. We have to provide those for them. The list goes on. It is criminal. It is unconscionable. It is wicked for people who are so highly privileged, who are the wealthiest people in the country to still be sucking our blood dry by collecting these things which they don’t need and depriving others of them.
Do you agree with suggestions that we should do away with the bi-cameral legislature to save cost?
In fact I was just coming to that. If we’re going to keep the bi-cameral type of National Assembly, we must do something. And that is: We must make it part time, as we had in the First Republic. They would legislate for two months, and then everybody would go back. To save this country from this tremendous cost that is bending our back, we need to turn the National Assembly into part time operation, so that any member who is there is someone comfortably having a profession somewhere else. In those days, teachers, professors, local government chairmen, emirs and so forth, they all came. They were only paid sitting allowance and were housed. They had their professions. They were not looters who had come to make a fortune in the National Assembly. We must go back to that, make it part time and pay them only sitting allowances.
The Senate said you did not get your facts right in claiming they have not passed any bill to aid the anti-corruption war. Is that so?
There’s passing and there’s passing. Let’s take the Financial Intelligence Agency Bill as an example. The bill they passed is just pure vendetta. There are other financial intelligence unit that are located within other anti-corruption agencies all over the world. What is important is the level of their independence within where they’re located. But these people want to take it out of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) because they want to smack the Acting Chairman Ibrahim Magu in the eye. That’s all. So I don’t count that as an achievement. When you do something based on hatred, it’s not an achievement.
What about the Whistleb-blower Bill which they passed?
We were already operating the Whistle-blower policy before it went to them. And I’m not aware that the Bill has been signed into law. But, the policy was already in operation.
They also said they passed the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Bill, contrary to your claim
I am even surprised government took that bill to the National Assembly. If we have stolen property abroad, mutual legal assistance enables that government to cooperate with us for the return of our assets. It gives us access to properties located within foreign territories. You don’t need legislation for that. It’s just something between two heads of state.
So, which laws were you referring to?
The Special Criminal Court Bill, which will create a court specifically for cases on corruption, narcotics, kidnapping, with main emphasis on corruption cases. They are sitting on that.
Is that all?
There is the Proceeds of Crime Bill, which automatically will put anybody whose assets is seized on the defence, to prove ownership. The burden of proof will be reversed. He has to establish that he’s the owner. There are little clauses under various laws but we want to put them under one head where a prosecutor can zero in and use it. They have not passed that.
The Senate has refused to confirm Acting EFCC chairman. For how long can Magu remain in acting capacity?
Indefinitely. The Senate, in my view, doesn’t even have jurisdiction in this matter. It is the President who has jurisdiction because of Section 171 of the Constitution where he is empowered to appoint him directly as chairman. This government is being a bit too careful, gentle, not wanting to ruffle feathers. It’s okay. Maybe that’s why they’re politicians and in government. If people like me who are not politicians were there, these people (Senators) would have heard a different message. I’d have rammed things through and damned them to go and do whatever they like, and let’s see who would come on top, because I believe that ultimately, righteousness, a good cause, a belief in principle will prevail. We’re dealing with people who are undergoing all sorts of investigations; they cannot face a righteous man. So, it’s a kind, gentle government, and I think they’re lucky that people like me are not there.
What is your view on calls for restructuring?
I am a strong supporter of restructuring. Nigeria is a very difficult country, that’s why there are different views on restructuring. Left to me, I’ll say we should go back to the 1963 Constitution and then modify it to suit the present circumstances. What we want to create are viable federating units. The only viable one in Nigeria now is Lagos. All the others are not viable.